The F1 thread

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Raid
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Raid » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:40 am

Don't forget that Hamilton's move to Mercedes was not an obvious choice at the time; they had been in the sport for three years prior to Hamilton's joining and scored one race victory and a total of 6 podiums. In that same period McLaren had scored 18 wins and 47 podiums. People at the time thought Lewis daft for choosing to switch teams. Lewis was only on the podium 5 times in his first year at Mercedes.

Yes, obviously Mercedes have been dominant since 2014, but the two teammates were almost always allowed to race, unlike Schumacher's time at Ferrari. There were multiple occasions when Barrichello was forced to give Schumacher the win, even early in the season. This has happened once or twice between Hamilton and Bottas, though it was late enough in the year for the championship to largely be over. I don't recall it happening between Hamilton and Rosberg.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:04 am

Raid wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:40 am
I don't recall it happening between Hamilton and Rosberg.
IIRC, the only time it happened was at the 2013 Malaysian GP, right around the same point as the infamous Multi-21 incident between Vettel and Webber, where Vettel was told to stay behind Webber and then blatantly whizzed past him. Rosberg I think was told to either stay behind Hamilton or give up the place, and he obeyed. I remember having a heated debate with Cheal on PW about it, where he was saying Rosberg would never win a championship like that, and I argued that he was making a case for the team to retain him on the basis that he wasn't going to beat Hamilton in future years in another car.

In hindsight I think we were both right in our own way, as the team did keep him, but he only won by playing dirty against Hamilton.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by arqueturus » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:16 pm

I'll chip in on this one although I'm not major FI fan (I'm MotoGp) but my missus is and in particular a LH fan (she was wearing a 44 shirt watching the race yesterday). I find LH to be as dull as ditchwater but he can clearly drive and drive very well, yes the Merc is the best car but conditions yesterday were horrible and he drove brilliantly, he stays calm and doesn't make stupid mistakes then build his speed up. You don't win a race on the first lap.

Did anyone else really enjoy the early race onboard of Verstappen following Vettel? Lot's of traction control being engaged for the Red Bull and going wide on every corner and Vettel as smooth as butter.

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Snowy
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Snowy » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:25 pm

Maturin wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:16 am
The Ferrari was still undoubtedly the best car in almost all Schumi's seasons, regardless of what input he may have put into it initially - which isn't easy to quantify.
Not so, Schuey joined Ferrari in 1996 and the car was an utter shitbox. They improved year on year but it wasn't until the 2000 season, his 5th with the Scuderia, that they finally won. That's 5 years of Schumacher's career striving to improve to the necessary level. Sure, once they got there they had a golden 5 years of back to back titles but they climbed a mountain to get there.

By cheating I am guessing you mean the Villeneuve shunt. Not going to defend that other than to say it was a fairly established practice in F1 - Prost deliberately took Senna out in 1989 to clinch the title and Senna returned the favour in 1990. Schumacher tried it in '97 in a moment of stupidity and lost out as a result.

Worth noting that Hamilton was a McLaren driver when they stole Ferrari technical blueprints - I would be surprised if he hadn't known... just saying ;)
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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:37 pm

Okay sure, it took a few seasons longer than I remembered before they dominated, but the rest of my points still stand - in all his time there he gained many victories against teammates which he didn't earn on the day, unlike Hamilton who had to earn every one (apart from the debatable Bottas swap when it was touch & go for the championship). The titles he won at Ferrari, it was the best car on the grid those seasons.

As for the cheating, that's just one of them you mentioned. There's also Damon Hill, the qualifying at Monaco, and other bad stuff he pulled. Deliberate, unmitigated cheating on the race track. I'm sorry but there was no excuse for any of it, he was a serial offender. When added to the preferential treatment he always received within the team, I just can't understand any argument which says he earned his titles more than Lewis.

There's also the fact Hamilton beat prime Alonso in his rookie season, which was just as much of an achievement than his titles I think.

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Snowy
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Snowy » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:55 pm

I think the point I was making about team-mates is that Hamilton only has to beat his, where Schuey had to beat other dominant cars and drivers - Williams, McLaren, Bennetton etc. I agree wholeheartedly that Schuey didn't really have a team-mate of any note and they certainly knew who was #1.

Schuey was absolutely not above dirty tricks and it is a shame as it does sully an amazing legacy, but as a driver he was and remains head and shoulders above Hamilton for me. I confess I am saying so from a position of some ignorance - F1 has lost it's shine for me and I haven't watched it in some years - but I hold to my opinion regardless.
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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:12 pm

Yep, all I can say is Hamilton has proven time and time again he is a supreme racer, at least as good as Schumacher. Like I say, beating prime Alonso in his rookie season was incredible.

Hamilton also had to face tough opposition from other teams as well - 2008 was nip & tuck all the way. And he had a fight on his hands quite recently against Ferrari - until their dodgy power unit got found out. A couple of seasons recently weren't foregone conclusions; Vettel could have genuinely won if they hadn't made a shedload of silly errors during 2018 for example.

Plus there's endless instances of great driving inbetween his championships, where he got race wins in inferior cars from several places back on the grid.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:29 am

I think there is a tendency to look back on the Schumacher era with slight rose tinted glasses and forget how dominant the car was, people forget that Eddie Irvine nearly won a championship with it and he was not a good driver by any stretch of the imagination. No doubt Schumacher helped Ferrari get back to a position of dominance but they were and still are the most well resourced team on the grid so they could throw an awful lot of money at it. It is also easy to dismiss how much of an advantage Schumacher had by not having to race his teammate compared to Hamilton, it's not just about the race day. Practice and qualifying were all geared towards giving him the edge, he had access to any race setup advantages his teammate managed to achieve so he basically had two teams of engineers working for him on race day, the same is not true for Hamilton where his side of the garage is generally separate during race weekend to Bottas. It's also easy to forget that the Mercedes has not always been the best car on the grid, Ferrari had a better car in 2018 for instance, and there have been seasons where the Mercedes has been deficient on certain tracks.

If you give credit to Schumacher for dragging the Ferrari team to its position of dominance then you have to also give Hamilton credit for doing the same. Top drivers are in a symbiotic relationship with their teams and it is through working together that they achieve the heights they do.

EDIT: Before I say this I just want to say that I am not levelling it at anyone here. The lack of respect that Hamilton has garnered in the wider world through his achievements is annoying and slightly discouraging. I always go back to the residency stuff, such a big fuss was made when he moved to Monaco despite multiple British drivers doing it in the past. I think his outspokenness on black issues has also lead to some people trying to explain away his achievements. I have no doubt that if he was white he would be a Sir already (not that I think this is necessary it's just a way this country shows appreciation to sports people) and his achievements in F1 would have been more widely lauded.

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