General thread on Game Development issues/terrible behaviour

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Wrathbone
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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Wrathbone » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:06 am

Yeah, I read that text exchange. Even if that was an isolated incident, it's a window into what sort of person he is (or can be).

It occurs to me that over the last decade or so, I've often been surprised how many games Avellone has had a hand in. I wondered how he had time to lend his writing to so many projects. Now I realise it was probably because studios were cutting ties with him left, right and centre.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:12 am

Wrathbone wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:06 am
Yeah, I read that text exchange. Even if that was an isolated incident, it's a window into what sort of person he is (or can be).

It occurs to me that over the last decade or so, I've often been surprised how many games Avellone has had a hand in. I wondered how he had time to lend his writing to so many projects. Now I realise it was probably because studios were cutting ties with him left, right and centre.
I think it was more a bullet point to put on a PR sheet, a lot of the games he worked on was as a consultant and he ended up doing very little, like a few quests, rather than working on the main story.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:06 am

Angry Joe's statement:
It has come to my attention that someone I met at a public event more than two years ago, and I have had no contact with since, is now suddenly leveling allegations against me on social media. I want to be absolutely clear. These allegations are not true and anyone who looks at the facts can plainly see that. I have no idea why this person has decided to do this at this time but the fact that a defamatory smear posted on the Internet can ruin lives these days compels me to make this statement.

Here are the facts. This person approached me and my colleagues at a Twitch Party introducing herself as a fellow content creator who was interested in hanging out and networking. We exchanged Twitter handles. She then DM’ed me that same night at 2:16 am asking to see me again. I agreed and invited her to my public panel the next day then to a YouTube dinner meeting with account managers afterward. She showed up to my panel with a male friend who was more than welcome to join us at any point throughout the rest of the day or night after the panel concluded.

After my panel, we met up with my friend Other Joe and we all traveled together to the hotel where she chose to wait while I showered and got ready for the dinner. At no point did anything improper happen. I never offered or suggested sex. At the meeting I helped her network her channels with YouTube partner managers. After the dinner my friends and I attended another party in a public place. She tagged along. At the party she checked her bag/belongings. At no point did I ever take her phone or purse or deny her access to them. In fact she posted photos to her Twitter of her with other people throughout the night. I never grabbed, dragged, pushed, pulled, cornered, or spun her in any direction as she claims. I did not make her stay by my side at all times as she claims. We mingled at the party separately much of the time.

All of these facts can be confirmed by numerous people who were there that evening and her own account confirms these events. In her post she claims that she believed that I was pressuring her for sex. This is completely untrue. I never suggested sex, I never spoke about sex. I never touched her inappropriately. She is a grown up and we were out in public and she could have left at any time. I was just trying to help someone who had expressed interest in the industry and my show. I never imagined that this could be a bad thing.

Sexual assault is an alarming accusation and should always be taken seriously. If I or anyone had committed an offense then it should be reported to the police and investigated thoroughly. I urge this person to do that if she believes an offense occurred so I can clear my name. However instead of affording me due process, she decided to post false claims out of the blue more than two years later. The consequence is damage to not only my reputation, career, and brand, but also those whom I employ, my friends and my family – all because many people don’t bother to examine the facts, only the salacious headline.

This is now a serious legal matter. On the advice of my attorneys, all my future statements about this will be through the legal process. My lawyers are sending this person a cease and desist letter. Of course she is free to express her opinions about me all she wants. What she is not allowed to do is lie about me or defame me to the public and suggest that I am a sexual predator when I am not. If her defamation continues, I will be forced to take further legal action.

I have been in the public eye for 12 years now and all of this frustrates me so much because fabricated and embellished stories like hers do a disservice to victims of sexual harassment and abuse. I want to thank those who resisted the temptation to rush to judgment and took the time to look at the facts. Thank you for your support.
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mev

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:10 am

PC Gamer article on recent slew of allegations:

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/women-in-the ... arassment/

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:39 am

I don't watch Angry Joe's stuff and only really know his name, so I've read his statement and his accuser's statement as a blank slate. I get the impression that he was being creepy and using predatory tactics while not technically doing anything illegal. I suppose the question is whether anyone else comes forward with accounts of similar incidents.

If I was being very generous, I'd say that it's possible this was a one-off and he didn't realise he was scaring her (or at least making her uncomfortable), though it seems unlikely. If the opposite is true, though, and he knew exactly what he was doing and it wasn't the only time, what recourse is there for his victims? If he hasn't broken the law, all they have left is to tell their side of things and let people know what he's really like. This is what leads to cancel culture (although from what I understand, Angry Joe's so popular that he's basically immune from it), which is not how it should be. There needs to be a better way.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:51 am

That's not a great statement, it talks down to his accuser and tries to disprove her story by being vague and force them to shut-up by threatening legal action. Also his claim about sexual assault is wrong she never claimed that, just that he behaved in a predatory way.


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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Alan » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:06 am

It’s a weird thread when adultery is the least scummy thing in it :(
A man who could tell more truth and eat fewer pies.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Mantis » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:48 am

I'm not sure that he deserves to be crucified for this one. It makes sense for him to quit though as Ubisoft would almost certainly be considering pushing him if he has predominantly been having relationships with fans of the games, it doesn't look particularly good on their company image.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:51 am

I think having an affair with a fan is troubling as again it is exploiting that power dynamic, whether knowingly or not.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Mantis » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:59 am

If you apply blanket ideas like that then every man who has ever been in any kind of position of power or had any kind of public image connected to their work/art/whatever is guilty. What about actors or artists, or heaven forbid musicians who are active on what is largely a huge party scene where sex is frequently involved?

They were all consenting adults. And we have no idea of what the individual circumstances were that led to these relationships. The ethics of his lying and cheating on his wife is one thing to condemn, the fact that they were fans is a separate issue and one that none of us are qualified to make any moralistic judgement on.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:03 pm

To be frank, yes. Everyone who has a position of power as a man needs to be very aware of the sexual situation that they are going into. There is an incredibly fine line between a women wanting to have sex in that situation because they actually want to and doing it because of the power dynamic at work. Just because someone gave their consent does not mean that they wanted to partake in a sexual relationship. We need to move away from seeing sexual abuse as only happening when someone explicitly says no. I'm not saying these situations are all instances of rape but they are troubling situations that men need to be much more aware of. This is part of the cultural change that needs to be made.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:06 pm

Think I'm going to side with Dj on this one. What I also find troubling about this one is her suggestion that he was actively seeking out fans, and ones considerably younger than him, which is quite predatory behaviour.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Mantis » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:16 pm

I think you are taking agency away from everybody involved with such a blanket view. I think more men than you realise are fully aware of the awkward position they're put in with scenarios like this, even so far as something much smaller scale like a junior colleague in an office environment.

But to automatically leap to "this is a worrying abuse of power" when you have absolutely no knowledge of what actually occurred is simply demonizing every man who engages in it when there are plenty of women who know full well what they want and are happy to reciprocate. You simply can't know on a case by case basis.

It's one thing giving victims the strength to come forward where real criminal abuse has happened. But the fact that you are equating rape to a case of consenting adult relationships where a guy has cheated on his wife is really taking things too far.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Mantis » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:17 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:06 pm
Think I'm going to side with Dj on this one. What I also find troubling about this one is her suggestion that he was actively seeking out fans, and ones considerably younger than him, which is quite predatory behaviour.
Wasn't aware of that particular detail, that is veering into pretty sketchy territory.

My previous point stands though.

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