General thread on Game Development issues/terrible behaviour

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Wrathbone
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Re: Currently Playing

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:56 am

Except for cases like William Roach or Cliff Richard, whose reputations have been permanently tarnished even though found innocent. Or last year's case of ProJared, who was accused by his wife of some pretty terrible things which he later provided substantial evidence to show were false, but it was too late by then (he did by his own admission do some pretty weird stuff vaguely related to it which were mainly used by his wife as a character assassination). He's tried to revive his career but it's not taken off. Cancel culture is a serious and shitty thing.

Like I say, accusations have to be taken seriously and the default stance should be to believe victims, but public condemnation of someone who is not proven guilty, however many accusations there are, is not the answer. I agree that the law is not entirely fit for purpose in this regard and it should be reformed - how, I don't know. I think it's fair to say that the current way these cases are handled is not working, though.

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Re: Currently Playing

Post by Mantis » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:13 am

The law can't really be reformed for historical cases. If someone waits years to accuse someone of rape then, like every other criminal act which happened years ago, in all likelihood there isn't enough concrete evidence to prosecute. And DJs suggestion that there is enough hearsay from the multitude of accusations to safely say he probably did do those things is still not good enough, in fact to suggest such a thing is potentially quite dangerous. Where does it stop if we start prosecuting people on cases for which there isn't enough direct evidence?

The only way to change things for the best going forwards is to change our culture around rape and sexism. The existing structures which allow men (and women) to abuse their positions to coerce people into sex need to be broken down and made more transparent, aggressors need educating and discouraging from the motivation to commit such acts in the first place (which really should start from a school age with proper education) and victims need empowering and encouragement to report crimes as soon as they happen when there is likely still strong evidence to support their accusations (not an easy thing to achieve but I think a strong campaign on it has the power to change this).

I think Jeremy Soule in all likelihood did do the things he has been accused of, but we simply can't know for sure. And whilst it is an injustice to let someone walk free for horrible crimes that they likely commited, it's just as much of an injustice to ruin the livelihood of someone who may be innocent.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:21 am

Just tidied things up in the other thread a bit by moving the discussion over here instead.

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Re: Currently Playing

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:47 am

Mantis wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:13 am
I think Jeremy Soule in all likelihood did do the things he has been accused of, but we simply can't know for sure. And whilst it is an injustice to let someone walk free for horrible crimes that they likely commited, it's just as much of an injustice to ruin the livelihood of someone who may be innocent.
I think that's what it comes down to. Ultimately, I'd rather let a potentially guilty man go free than potentially punish someone innocent.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Animalmother » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:02 pm

So yeah...I've been replaying Skyrim... :?

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:53 pm

I didn't want to say, but I'm currently replaying Oblivion. :lol:

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Re: Currently Playing

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:47 pm

Mantis wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:13 am
The law can't really be reformed for historical cases. If someone waits years to accuse someone of rape then, like every other criminal act which happened years ago, in all likelihood there isn't enough concrete evidence to prosecute. And DJs suggestion that there is enough hearsay from the multitude of accusations to safely say he probably did do those things is still not good enough, in fact to suggest such a thing is potentially quite dangerous. Where does it stop if we start prosecuting people on cases for which there isn't enough direct evidence?
See what you are saying here is part of the problem with prosecuting rape/abuse, you want direct evidence and in most cases there isn't any. If the person felt pressured or coerced into sex then there wont be any physical wounds as the damage was all physiological and in most of these things it comes down to one persons word against another as that's all there really is. Also your use of the words "someone waits years to accuse someone of rape" are problematic, you seem to be laying the blame at the feet of the victim when in nearly all cases the victims was too scared to report the rape/abuse or felt they wouldn't be believed. In this case the only reason the people spoke up was because of the MeToo movement.

I'm not advocating for someone to go to jail based on trail by media/public opinion but in some cases I think it is right to side with the victims, much like people have done with Saville.

Just an aside, I don't think you should use the word hearsay to describe a victim recounting the events, it reduces what they are saying to idle gossip.

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Re: Currently Playing

Post by Mantis » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:22 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:47 pm
Mantis wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:13 am
The law can't really be reformed for historical cases. If someone waits years to accuse someone of rape then, like every other criminal act which happened years ago, in all likelihood there isn't enough concrete evidence to prosecute. And DJs suggestion that there is enough hearsay from the multitude of accusations to safely say he probably did do those things is still not good enough, in fact to suggest such a thing is potentially quite dangerous. Where does it stop if we start prosecuting people on cases for which there isn't enough direct evidence?
See what you are saying here is part of the problem with prosecuting rape/abuse, you want direct evidence and in most cases there isn't any. If the person felt pressured or coerced into sex then there wont be any physical wounds as the damage was all physiological and in most of these things it comes down to one persons word against another as that's all there really is. Also your use of the words "someone waits years to accuse someone of rape" are problematic, you seem to be laying the blame at the feet of the victim when in nearly all cases the victims was too scared to report the rape/abuse or felt they wouldn't be believed. In this case the only reason the people spoke up was because of the MeToo movement.

There is nothing problematic about my phrasing unless you willfully interpret my words in such a strange way in which you think I appear to be victim blaming. If someone waits years to make their accusation then that is simply a statement of fact, they have waited years, and in doing so it makes any criminal proceedings harder to prove. I am well aware of the significant complexities around the issue and pressure that many feel which makes them unable to speak out. I actually mentioned that in my post regarding a wider cultural shift being required to ever have a hope of addressing the issue, both in dissuading would-be aggressors and in giving victims the confidence to come forward without the repercussions that so many face. The MeToo movement is a good example of victims feeling empowered and encouraged to come forward, but society still has a long way to go on the issue. You have only selectively quoted me and not actually acknowledged that I made mention of that point in my previous post though.

And I was using the term hearsay in the literal legal sense of the word, in which a significant amount of the evidence surrounding these cases often amounts to it. That is why securing prosecutions is problematic.

I don't really see how you can say that you don't think it's right for people to be trialed by media or public opinion and then in the same sentence say that it's right to side with the victims. What exactly does taking a side constitute if it isn't forming a basis of public opinion against someone? Saville is a very extreme example to provide, the nuclear option of cases in fact, it is widely accepted by basically all who have any knowledge of the matter that he was guilty. But what about the less detailed or more minor cases? What does you taking a side constitute there? You are so far removed from any of these cases and have nothing other than secondhand knowledge that you read from news sources that realistically you are never going to be reliably enough informed to actually 'take a side' in the majority of cases.

Take Jeremy Soule for instance. Do I think that the accusations against him are consistent enough that he probably is guilty? I would say so. Does that constitute me taking a side? I don't know. I would probably err on the side of caution and not invite him to dinner. I'm not going to start spreading word that he's a rapist and a bad guy either though because ultimately I don't actually know. Moralistic virtue signalling is all well and good and makes us feel like good people for being so firmly virtuistic, until one day an innocent man does commit suicide as a result of false accusations.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Medicine Man » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:43 pm


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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:44 pm

NOOOO!

One of my favourite game writers :(

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:52 pm

Ugh. I feel like I've been punched in the gut. This is really shitty :cry:

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:43 pm

Techland have parted ways with him and so have Gato Games who he was working on Waylanders with. Paradox put out a statement saying although he worked with them none of his work will be appearing in Bloodlines 2.

Angry Joe has also been accused of sexual harassment along with a few other YouTube personalities that I haven't heard of.

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:04 pm

The old adage of never meeting your heroes has never seemed truer. :( He hasn’t released a full statement yet, but the fact that he seems to be acknowledging that the alleged events happened (with his interpretation of them different to the accusers’, presumably) is pretty bad.

He’s had his fingers in so many wonderful RPG pies over the last 20 years. I’m clinging desperately to separation of art and artist.

Are there any gaming talents out there who aren’t secretly sexual predators or otherwise terrible people?

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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:14 pm

Angry Joe response:


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Re: Skyrim Composer and Night in the Woods Dev Accused of Rape

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:52 am

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:04 pm
The old adage of never meeting your heroes has never seemed truer. :( He hasn’t released a full statement yet, but the fact that he seems to be acknowledging that the alleged events happened (with his interpretation of them different to the accusers’, presumably) is pretty bad.

He’s had his fingers in so many wonderful RPG pies over the last 20 years. I’m clinging desperately to separation of art and artist.

Are there any gaming talents out there who aren’t secretly sexual predators or otherwise terrible people?
I saw a screenshot of one of the texts he sent to a women yesterday and it was pretty bad.

Some of the worst stuff that has come out is around esports organisations where people have been turning a blind eye to the reports that have been made to them over the years.

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