The Watch

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Sly Boots
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Re: The Watch

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:45 am

Raid wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:42 am
I wonder if it's partially an ego thing. I get the feeling creative types don't want to just reproduce someone else's work, they have to either put their own spin on things or at least create something of their own within the parameters set in another's work.
This is 100% the problem with The Witcher post-S1.

Rumours abound that the writing team actively made fun of and belittled the source material in the writing room. Obviously thought they could do better (spoiler: they really couldn't).

Makes sense that someone as passionate about the lore as Cavill, who campaigned to win the role of Geralt, decided to GTFO even before S3 screens.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:01 am

Maturin wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:12 am
I stopped watching Rings of Power after about 4 episodes. None of it made any sense in relation to Tolkien's work.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that. Outside of a couple of weird choices and permitting that some things that appear to contradict established things in Middle Earth are unresolved in the show*, I didn't see anything that was incompatible with Tolkien's work. In fact I saw things which convinced me that the writers have a far deeper appreciation for the subtleties of the work than most people give them credit for, such as the demonstrable recognition of the two kinds of elvish hope in Elrond's story (Amdir, which is roughly hoping that an endeavour pans out okay, and Estel, which is a grander faith in the destiny of Arda and the powers that shape it) and the dangers of focusing on one more than the other.

To expand on that example a bit more, because the subtle detail on show is easy to miss, and I find it quite moving:
Spoiler
There's a scene where the elven king Gil-Galad is trying to convince Elrond to put pressure on his friend Durin to mine mithril for them, as there is an immediate perceived threat to the surivival of the elves if they don't. Elrond is doubtful that mithril is going to solve all their problems, and Gil-Galad reminds him that hope is never futile (or something to that effect) - Amdir in full effect.

As the king walks off, Elrond, still skeptical, looks up to Star of Eärendil shining in the sky. Why? Because Eärendil was his father, a mortal who affixed one of the Silmarils to the brow of his ship and sailed to Valinor to seek the aid of the Valar against the evil of Morgoth, ultimately sailing into the sky so that the heavenly light would shine down upon the world as a beacon of hope that evil would not prevail - the strongest symbol of the Estel brand of hope imaginable. If you doubt that, consider that the elvish name for the Star of Eärendil is Gil-Estel.

Elrond is doubtful of Gil-Galad's Amdir hope because he believes the fading of the elves may be in service of the Estel kind of hope, even if he can't see how. He looks to his father to affirm this.

And people think the writers don't know Tolkien's work?!

*I'm referring to these two specific things:
Spoiler
1) Galadriel claiming that she was married to Celeborn but that he's dead. Clearly he's not, and doubtless that will come to light in the future.

2) The thing with mithril coming from a battle between an elf and a balrog. There's nothing about that in Tolkien's collected works, but I'm unconvinced that it's legit within the show's story. I think it's a lie sold to the elves by Sauron, or something along those lines.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Snowy » Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:25 pm

Oops sorry, I seem to have derailed this one :lol:
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Re: The Watch

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:50 pm

Yep, sorry, I've not helped there. :lol: But I think there's an interesting wider discussion to be had on adaptations. I broadly agree that sticking to the source material where appropriate is best, but I've seen plenty of criticism (some here but mainly elsewhere) along those lines targeted at the Rings of Power and most of it doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny. RoP does make some adaptive choices - some out of necessity (e.g. 2000 years of history being compressed into a smaller timeframe, because a TV show with mortal characters doesn't work if every episode half the cast vanishes because it's moved on 50 years) and some out of legality. As I said before though, I don't think the vast majority of the adaptive choices are unfaithful to the source material in terms of spirit, if not in terms of exact events.

The Witcher season 2 is also interesting to me because I didn't hate it, and I'm largely convinced it's because I haven't read Blood of Elves (yet - I've read The Last Wish) and so had nothing to compare against. Maybe simply knowing how good something should be is enough to sour it, while ignorance is bliss.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Maturin » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:08 pm

Yeah, of the 4 episodes I saw I really didn't interpret things the same way you did WB, but whatever. I already had a problem with the stilted acting and poorly-written dialogue regardless, so I don't think it's the show for me.

I'm with you on Witcher S2. It was alright, not as good as S1, but likewise I haven't read all the Witcher books so it's probably not pissing me off as much as RoP.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:10 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:50 pm
Yep, sorry, I've not helped there. :lol: But I think there's an interesting wider discussion to be had on adaptations. I broadly agree that sticking to the source material where appropriate is best, but I've seen plenty of criticism (some here but mainly elsewhere) along those lines targeted at the Rings of Power and most of it doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny. RoP does make some adaptive choices - some out of necessity (e.g. 2000 years of history being compressed into a smaller timeframe, because a TV show with mortal characters doesn't work if every episode half the cast vanishes because it's moved on 50 years) and some out of legality. As I said before though, I don't think the vast majority of the adaptive choices are unfaithful to the source material in terms of spirit, if not in terms of exact events.

The Witcher season 2 is also interesting to me because I didn't hate it, and I'm largely convinced it's because I haven't read Blood of Elves (yet - I've read The Last Wish) and so had nothing to compare against. Maybe simply knowing how good something should be is enough to sour it, while ignorance is bliss.
Well, put it like this, S2 Witcher would be like making a new, edgier Lord of the Rings, and instead of accompanying Frodo to Lothlorien and beyond, Merry and Pippin are now killed off in the first act by Farmer Maggot for stealing vegetables. Also, Frodo and Sam now hate each other for 'reasons', and Gollum is now their love interest and a tense love triangle ensues. Gollum is also now an Ent. Gandalf is still a powerful wizard, but now he fuels his magical abilities through the slaughter of small animals. Saruman and Sauron have been combined into a new enemy, Saruronman, because the writers think having two antagonists is confusing.

And Middle Earth is now Slough.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Mantis » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:04 pm

I liked season 2 of The Witcher. :oops:

I haven't read the books.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:22 pm

Just imagine how much better the books are!

No joke, everything they added is objectively worse than what they took out, for no reason.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:55 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:10 pm
Well, put it like this, S2 Witcher would be like making a new, edgier Lord of the Rings, and instead of accompanying Frodo to Lothlorien and beyond, Merry and Pippin are now killed off in the first act by Farmer Maggot for stealing vegetables. Also, Frodo and Sam now hate each other for 'reasons', and Gollum is now their love interest and a tense love triangle ensues. Gollum is also now an Ent. Gandalf is still a powerful wizard, but now he fuels his magical abilities through the slaughter of small animals. Saruman and Sauron have been combined into a new enemy, Saruronman, because the writers think having two antagonists is confusing.

And Middle Earth is now Slough.
:lol:

I’m sold.

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Re: The Watch

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:35 pm

:lol:

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Re: The Watch

Post by Snowy » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:30 am

I have read the Witcher books, but until this thread I hadn't realised that S2 of the tv series was meant to be following the plot of Blood of Elves, I am guessing because it did such a poor job of following the story in the book. For me it was a show that riffed on themes from the series of books and which was boring.

:oops:
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