George Floyd - US in meltdown

[Wrathbone]

I'm generally against tearing down historical stuff, uncomfortable or otherwise, but in the context of Colston and where/why his statue was there... yeah, get it gone. The signal sent by its tearing down is stronger and more important than the reminder it would serve by remaining there.

There's an interesting and difficult discussion to be had around this subject, though. Where do we draw the line? Is Churchill okay because he got us through WW2 (and even that's questionable), despite being a total arse most of the time? What about statues and mummies of Egyptian pharaohs, whose power and acomplishments were achieved primarily through mass slave labour? I don't think we should tear down Cleopatra's needle, but it's troubling when you think about what it represents.

[Achtung Englander]

good point. I am in agreement of getting rid of the Colston statue but bulked at Churchill, gave zero thought about the Egyptians. Empathy to the past is important so that history does not repeat itself for the worse but for some people who have experienced no discomfort in life or little in the way of prejudice, to feel that they need to carry guilt over many generations feels like empathy porn. Just be true to yourself.

Churchill is a really difficult one. He was the one who steadfastly stood against the Nazis and we owe him a huge gratitude (actually it was more the soldiers who did the fighting) but at the same time, pre-war, Churchill was a die hard imperialist and had no trouble gassing the Kurds when there was an uprising in British controlled Iraq. On balance if the Germans won, the world would be holy different to today and the liberties we enjoy would not exist. So can you forgive many transgressions that affected millions if he did one massive right that affected the lives of billions in a positive way.

That is the thing about humans, we are complex. The idea that there is right and wrong, goodie and baddie is too simple and crude.

[Wrathbone]

That is the thing about humans, we are complex. The idea that there is right and wrong, goodie and baddie is too simple and crude.

This absolutely bears remembering in all discussions around this. It's why I can't get my head around many of the actions of police in these videos. Some of them are explainable (not excusable) because an officer panicked or overreacted, but others I can't fathom why they'd attack someone for no apparant reason. They must have a reason - people don't act like that for no reason at all - and it's a level of complexity that is currently beyond me.

[Mantis]

Look back on most nations histories and you'll see some element of them being built on slavery or racism, particularly the more colonial countries which had further reaching influence.

I think it's worth remembering men like Colston because it doesn't hurt to remember that we enjoy a higher grade of life in the UK owing in part to some of the pretty despicable stuff that our ancestors did to secure the empire.

Whether you tear down the statues entirely, put information plaques up so that people clearly know who they are and what they did, or move them to museums is an interesting debate.

I do think we should remember our history, warts and all, though. Because if we start erasing the more questionable parts then I feel like we are more likely to repeat them. It would gloss over the sheer number of people who died to give us the quality of life we have today too, and they are definitely worth remembering.

[Achtung Englander]

I do think we should remember our history, warts and all, though. Because if we start erasing the more questionable parts then I feel like we are more likely to repeat them. It would gloss over the sheer number of people who died to give us the quality of life we have today too, and they are definitely worth remembering.

superb point

[Rossell]

I do think we should remember our history, warts and all, though. Because if we start erasing the more questionable parts then I feel like we are more likely to repeat them. It would gloss over the sheer number of people who died to give us the quality of life we have today too, and they are definitely worth remembering.

superb point

I agree this is a viewpoint I've had for years.

For example we should have a statue of trump near the white house that all future presidents must walk up to and say "I will not be a Edwin like you" three times before being allowed to enter after election.

[Animalmother]

A statue of him sitting on his golden toilet with a phone in one hand and a sack of Russian money in the other.

[Sly Boots]

They could sculpt it from human faeces for that ultra-realistic look.

[Strudel]

I think Keir Starmer made a good point this morning: "A statue is there to honour people. And you can’t have that [a statue of a slaver] in 21st-century Britain.That statue should have been brought down properly with consent and put, I would say, in a museum."

There's remembering history and then there's celebrating it. Based on the plaque that was up by this statue it wasn't educational at all and who had even heard of this bloke before the weekend? I've seen plenty of comments along the lines of "this one act of vandalism has better educated the British public about our role in slavery than the 125 years of the statue's existence" and I expect that's correct.

[Wrathbone]

I've seen a lot of people wringing hands over the manner in which it was taken down - i.e. via an angry crowd rather than by democratic process. Under normal circumstances I would agree. These are not normal circumstances. From what I understand, the people of Bristol went through painstaking processes to get the council to take it down, and they were largely ignored, dismissed or delayed through beauracracy. Given everything that's going on, the decision to take action was a clear mandate from the people. Due process had its chance.

Looks like authorities have identified 17 people who were involved though, and they'll most likely be prosecuted. Justice, eh?

[Rossell]

I hope they don't target Colston Hall because they've been redeveloping the building and have gone on record to state the name will be changed long before this.

[Drarok]

Were "they"? Hasn't this topic cropped up now and then for years with no action?

[Wrathbone]

Well that didn't take long:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/08/black-li ... -12818932/

I mean, they're not wrong. I'm not sure that an informative plaque stating as much would serve any better than graffiti.

[Achtung Englander]

I think politics is now a swinging pendulum that is gaining momentum

swing to the left will swing to the right and will swing even greater to the left, will swing more to the right, left, right, left, right with each swing getting further away

Has the world been this crazy since 1945 ?

[Mantis]

This is certainly the most turbulent that geo politics has been in my lifetime so far. I'm sure the 2020s will prove to escalate things as time goes on.

I'm not sure how comparable it really is to the 70s and 80s though when USA and USSR were threatening to destroy the planet to get one up on each other whilst telling their own citizens that their opponents were evil incarnate.