The F1 thread

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Wrathbone
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:37 am

Yep, completely unnecessary, especially considering Raikkonen is only 3 points behind Bottas in the championship. All they've achieved is pissing off Bottas and lowering public opinion of the team.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:33 pm

I think they would have been stupid not to do it. You don't know what is going to happen over the next few races, it only takes one DNF and a win for Vettel to cut the lead in half. It makes complete sense that you ensure your leading driver gets the maximum points if you can.

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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:36 pm

Yeah, it makes sense to me. If it had been early in the season I'm sure they would have switched back, but with a small number of races left and a drivers championship on the line I think every single team out there would have done exactly the same thing.

Hamilton is due some bad luck, so even with these 7 extra points it still may not be enough. With 25 points for a win these days, a 50 point lead is not a huge lead.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:58 pm

I don’t think 7 points are worth what they did. Ferrari have gone off the boil, and Vettel would have to have two wins in five races where Hamilton has a DNF to neutralise the points. Yeah, it’s not impossible but it’s extremely unlikely. What is highly plausible is that Raikkonen could take third place from Bottas.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:13 am

I doubt they really care about third place in the driver standings. Ensuring they win both titles is what is important to them.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Raid » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:55 pm

I think today is a perfect demonstration of why Lewis didn't need that extra 7 points from Sochi. I know, benefit of hindsight and all, but Seb just isn't handling the pressure. The lunge up at Max into a very fast corner was ill advised, and although I don't think Max was entirely without blame, I just sense that Seb is getting frustrated behind the wheel. I'm not going to pretend to know what the atmosphere in the team is like, but by most accounts Ferrari is an extremely pressured environment, and Seb seems to be shouldering that weight of expectation. It's clear from today that he doesn't have the benefit of team orders as Lewis has at Mercedes (Ferrari could have asked Raikkonen to slow and let Vettel by, although admittedly it was a 30 second gap between the two).

I'm getting the feeling Verstappen has developed something of a god complex. The incident with Kimi at the chicane today was *clearly* Max's fault, and he seems to think that Kimi, through no fault of his own should have changed his line to suit Max coming back onto the track. That's just idiotic; he honestly expects a close competitor to back off because of his own mistake? The cries of bullshit against stewards' decisions are also getting tediously common - he seems to think that he can't do anything wrong, and while self-confidence is clearly part of being a racing driver, a lack of self-awareness is just going to lead to a bad reputation.

Good race today, maybe not right at the front, but there was plenty of action throughout. I don't think we need further proof that Suzuka is an excellent circuit, but it's a welcome change after Sochi.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:15 pm

Today's result doesn't change things regarding the last race for me. If Ferrari/Vettel hadn't screwed up qualifying and Lewis had a mechanical issue today, Vettel would be right back in the title fight if Lewis hadn't had those extra 7 points. Seems pretty sound to me and I'd have done the same thing at this stage of the season.


Anyway yeah, decent race. I agree about Verstappen; he seemed to have settled down a bit after his wacky-racing at the start of the season, but it's crept back in again in recent races. I can see him getting reprimands soon about his offcolour comments towards stewards; drivers have been fined before for such things.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Raid » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:24 pm

I appreciate I'm being a little bitter about the Mercedes team orders thing from Sochi; yes, of course it makes sense to give yourself the largest advantage when there's so much money being shoveled into your F1 programme, I do see that, but in my mind it's just unsporting. It's not cheating, of course, and it's not as if we haven't seen it from Ferrari when it was ("Fernando. Is Faster. Than you."), but I don't watch F1 for sensible business decisions - I watch it for the competition, and over that weekend, Valtteri had done his job better than Lewis.

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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:31 pm

...and I've always viewed F1 as a combination of drivers and teams going against eachother, therefore have no issue with the team taking steps at the end of a season to increase their chance of the more prestigious drivers championship going to a driver in one of their cars. It fits within the sport, therefore isn't unsporting to me.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:21 am

Lewis was not the fastest driver at Sochi. He won specifically because the win was gifted to him. That to me is clearly unsporting.

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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:09 am

And for me there's clearly more to F1 than that. When a team is maximising its strategy to win (the WDC) against another team, that's the very point of the sport at the team level.

It's as much a team sport as an individual sport, therefore in some situations decisions have to be made so the team can overcome another team near the end of a season.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:49 am

I agree, but the question in Sochi wasn't whether Mercedes were going to win the constructors' title because they already had the 1-2. It was the drivers' title at stake.

Sport is fundamentally about competing to see who is the best at something, and when that is artificially gamed then it should be considered unsporting. Hamilton was not the best driver at Sochi, but Mercedes gamed it (within the rules) to artificially grant him the win when Bottas was actually the best driver that day. That is not in the spirit of the drivers' championship. Even Hamilton said as much afterwards.

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Maturin
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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Maturin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:58 am

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:49 am
I agree, but the question in Sochi wasn't whether Mercedes were going to win the constructors' title because they already had the 1-2. It was the drivers' title at stake...
...which the teams are fighting against eachother for just as much. No team would be happy to let another team win the WDC as long as they won the constructors.

I disagree with your second paragraph for the reasons I already put before. I think it's one of those things where we're not going to be able to see eye to eye. I can't think of any other way to explain why I feel it was perfectly acceptable.

F1 has always been one of the more obtuse sports tbh. From a sporting perspective, I don't watch an F1 race for the same reasons I watch a tennis match for example.

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:09 pm

I don't like team orders, but they have and probably always will be a part of the sport. I don't think it is unsporting in the context of F1 to implement them when they have been incorporated into the rules.

On the championship itself is it time to question whether Vettel has the ability to beat someone like Hamilton without a clear mechanical advantage? All his previous championships came about partly due to a vastly superior machine. He has been let down by his team in some regards, but he has also made some bad decisions and this isn't the first season he has done this. It's been taken as read for years that Vettel is at the same level as Hamilton due to his four titles, but does his inability to win the championship mean we need to reassess this assumption? Is his early form/the dominance of Red Bull clouding our judgement when considering his racing qualities now?

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Re: The F1 thread

Post by Raid » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:54 pm

I think Vettel as he is now is not a match for Hamilton. The skill is there, but he's impatient, frustrated, and it's causing him to make mistakes. Lewis on the other hand has never looked calmer. I suspect that Ferrari is simply too pressured an environment - there's such a massive weight of expectation at Ferrari that I don't think exists at Mercedes. Ferrari is practically the Italian national F1 team with all of the pressure from the press that comes with it. They've known this year that it's their best chance at a much-needed title in eight years, and I just think that the pressure has got to them. It can't help that they probably wanted this to be their year in memory of Marchionne.

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